Discussion about anything related to the post-Lucas movie releases.

Moderators: MistaBinks, Yakface.com Staff

By Lance Quazar
#162015
UKHistory wrote:It is like America gaining its independence and then losing the war of 1812 returning to colonial status. What was the point to the revolution?

Just my two cents.


That's a good point, but you're blaming TLJ for the mistakes TFA made. They had no choice but to exist in the same sequence of events laid out in Ep. 7. That said, I think they did the best they could to tell a great, interesting and fresh story within those (considerable) restraints.
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By YAK_Chewie
#162017
I saw it again last night. 4 times now. This time I took my son and three of his friends who had not seen it yet.

I like this movie quite a bit now. Yeah, still some flaws but it's good. Could have been epic if just a but of goofiness wasn't there and we saw a few classic OT aliens on Canto Bight.

I think something we forget is we grew up with the originals and to us, nothing can ever compare to what we felt back then. The closest is probably going to be Rogue One.

Seeing how these kids I went with last night react to the movie made me feel like Disney has a good grasp on what they have and how to make it work long term. These kids were more impressed by this movie than I expected.

Someone now just being exposed to the originals is less likely to find them as entertaining as these new films. I feel the originals are un-toppable, but Disney needs to pull in some of the older crowd, and a lot of the younger crowd AND get the casual movie goer to want to see these... and that's what they seem to be doing... these standalone films also are part of that strategy in keeping the "old school" fans happy and keepnig the OT era alive... hence Rogue One and Solo.

:wink:
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By darthvlad
#162044
So I got the Visual Dictionary for this (rather small, but not much in this movie compared to others), and there's one important detail that I thought should have been in the crawl or dialogue. Starkiller Base wipes out the New Republic and most of the fleet and worlds sympathetic to the Resistance's cause quickly surrender to the First Order, essentially taking most of the Resistance's support with it. Just a couple lines between Leia and Ackbar (or Holdo, or anyone) or Hux and Snoke and it would have made the situation more dire. I guess this is my main "gripe" about the movie - a few lines about a couple off-screen things and it would have been solid.
#162046
I've seen it twice, and continue to enjoy it - I think it could use some editing, but its otherwise a great movie. I liked TFA and RO as well, but I think TLJ takes the cake as my favorite. Both TFA and TLJ borrowed elements from the OT, but TLJ added enough twists to set it apart. RO was good, but it really didn't grab my excitement, because going into the movie, I figured most / all of the new characters were going to die and it would just lead us into ANH, which it did. TLJ really expanded the universe and evolved the Force, which is something I can certainly appreciate after being a fan for decades now.
By Lance Quazar
#162047
darthvlad wrote:So I got the Visual Dictionary for this (rather small, but not much in this movie compared to others), and there's one important detail that I thought should have been in the crawl or dialogue. Starkiller Base wipes out the New Republic and most of the fleet and worlds sympathetic to the Resistance's cause quickly surrender to the First Order, essentially taking most of the Resistance's support with it. Just a couple lines between Leia and Ackbar (or Holdo, or anyone) or Hux and Snoke and it would have made the situation more dire. I guess this is my main "gripe" about the movie - a few lines about a couple off-screen things and it would have been solid.


The Force Awakens suffered a similar problem. It's not even clear (certainly not from one viewing) that the capital and Republic fleet are getting wiped out. They never actually bother to explain the ramifications of what's happened and it leaves us with a very murky sense of the larger state of the galaxy. TLJ is a little bit better because they make it pretty clear that the tiny Resistance band we see are all that's left.
By jorsupersid
#162049
Lol soooo let me get this straight... We now will never see the New Republic... They destroyed it? Before it even matters to the plot or any of the characters.

But then again if I was 12yr (20 years ago) and you told me the plot to EPISODE 8 I wouldn't believe you one second of it. Especially beat per beat.

These story people are either scared or lazy to try and portray essential things. I mean think about this: you "could" never have Luke Skywalker in Star Wars. He is now only a tall tale. Sorta like Santa (or some religious archetype).

Personally I wouldn't buy a Picasso to just graffiti it and take pictures.
#162050
That's something I wish we saw a bit more of in TFA / TLJ, the New Republic. We only briefly see their fleet in the Hosnian system as its being destroyed during TFA. Two ships appear to be Mon Calamari (bottom right corner of planet) - but its difficult to identify anything else. Perhaps the New Republic / Resistance is using the same shipyards are they were during the ROTJ era. I would have hoped for something new, beyond modifications to existing designs.


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By jlw515
#162073
Well, still haven't watched TLJ a second time, but we did watch the Prequel Trilogy again last weekend. This was the first time I had watched the Prequel Trilogy in a couple of years. I've read some comments that TFA and TLJ are "still" better than any of the Prequel Trilogy, and after rewatching the Prequels, I would strongly disagree!

Now, take away any issues people have with Jar Jar Binks (who wasn't as bad as people let on, nor was he a major character - he is basically added to explain the "life debt" of the OT between Han & Chewie), and you have a pretty much linear plot throughout Eps. 1 to 3. Now, don't anyone come on here and start talking about small "plot holes" in the Prequel because EVERY movie has plot holes - ROTJ has a major plot hole called "the Second Death Star."

Anyway, the Prequels were MUCH better than the Sequel Trilogy (thus far) because the plot is very linear: Palpatine/Sidious uses Trade Federation blockade to gain political power = Palpatine/Sidious uses Separtist to persuade votes for Republic Army = Republic Army wipes out Jedi. VERY linear! We are also introduced to Anakin, who may be the fulfillment of some Jedi prophecy. He is trained by Obi-Wan. From the get-go he has anger issues = he kills Tusken Raider & children (yeah, so don't be so shocked when he killed those Padawans "too soon" in ROTS) = he falls to the Dark Side and leads the armies that kill Jedi. Again VERY linear.

The main issue with the Prequel Trilogy isn't really the Prequel Trilogy, it's the Original Trilogy because we ALREADY know what's going to happen. So, with the exception of maybe the Qui-Gon Jinn's death (which we really all expected) there wasn't any real "GASP" revelation like TESB. And you know what else the Prequel Trilogy didn't have??? A STUPID DEATH STAR or DEATH STAR PLANET! Well, except only in concept and design - it takes 2 episodes to plan and begin construction of what we eventually see in Ep. 4 - again VERY linear.

So, compare this with the Sequel Trilogy - thus far. TFA really screwed up the everything established in the PT and OT by basically making the Heroes of the Rebellion and the New Republic epic failures: Han and Leia failed not only as parents, but as political leaders, and Luke failed as the religious/Jedi leader. The New Order can build a Death Star planet - DUMBEST plot hole of the entire saga - that basically destroys the Republic in one shot.

OH, and the lightsaber battles in TPM (Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan vs Maul) and ROTS (Anakin vs Obi-Wan) are much better choreographed than anything in either TFA or TLJ. As a matter of fact (well, my opinion at least) the ROTS final lightsaber battle is probably one of the best choreographed "sword duels" of all time!

So, Lance Quazar is right that Rian Johnson could only follow what had been established in TFA, but main TWO major things I just can't get over - no matter how they try to explain them is (1) that dang turtle space race between the New Order and Resistance - just not believing that Resistance ship could out fly that Dreadnaught. The Blockade Runner certainly couldn't out run a Star Destroyer. And this plot hole alone is actually the major premise of the entire movie - trying to outrun the New Order, and (2) FINN - his entire story is redundant. You could literally edit out everything associated with Finn in TLJ and you would still have the same story. It's like the Big Bang Theory joke about Raiders of the Lost Ark - you can basically take away Indianan Jones and you would still have the same ending of the story. I really wish they would have just killed Finn's character off which would have given him some sort of meaning.

In addition, we weren't really introduced to any new characters that really moved the story along or will continue to move the story along in Ep. 9. So, to me, TLJ is almost like TFA part 2 and not really enough to considered Episode 8 OR we change Ep. 8 to Ep. 9 seeing as how the ending of TLJ would be more fitting for the ending of the entire ST.

Anyway, enough of my rant.

Jason
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By Imaculata
#164268
jlw515 wrote:Anyway, the Prequels were MUCH better than the Sequel Trilogy (thus far) because the plot is very linear: Palpatine/Sidious uses Trade Federation blockade to gain political power = Palpatine/Sidious uses Separtist to persuade votes for Republic Army = Republic Army wipes out Jedi. VERY linear!


I don't see why a story being linear, makes it a good story. And I think most people who dislike the prequels would argue that most of its big problems come from dull lifeless unlikeable characters, and not really any exciting stakes in the story. That said, people can like whatever they want. We're all Star Wars fans here, so I'm not really here to hate on the prequels.


jlw515 wrote:So, compare this with the Sequel Trilogy - thus far. TFA really screwed up the everything established in the PT and OT by basically making the Heroes of the Rebellion and the New Republic epic failures: Han and Leia failed not only as parents, but as political leaders, and Luke failed as the religious/Jedi leader.


You've got to have some stakes if you want to have a movie. You can't just have everything be fine and at peace. New threats have to emerge, and the characters have to go through trials and tribulations. That Han and Leia would fail as parents, is not really surprising, or far fetched in the slightest.


jlw515 wrote:The New Order can build a Death Star planet - DUMBEST plot hole of the entire saga - that basically destroys the Republic in one shot.


I've always felt that this was TFA's one big flaw. It didn't need to recycle the Deathstar for the third time, and it seems very unlikely the First Order would be able to build one again in secret.

jlw515 wrote:OH, and the lightsaber battles in TPM (Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan vs Maul) and ROTS (Anakin vs Obi-Wan) are much better choreographed than anything in either TFA or TLJ. As a matter of fact (well, my opinion at least) the ROTS final lightsaber battle is probably one of the best choreographed "sword duels" of all time!


I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I feel the prequel lightsaber battles are over-choreographed. They don't really feel like fights... more like an elaborate ballet. No one seems to be trying to hit each other. Compare this with the much more convincing, and smaller scale fight at the end of TFA, and it just blows any of the fights in the prequels out of the water. I also like that the new movies remember that lightsabers are supposed to feel heavy, and shouldn't be overused. Heck, even the big fight in TLJ is much better, for all the movie's flaws.

jlw515 wrote:that dang turtle space race between the New Order and Resistance - just not believing that Resistance ship could out fly that Dreadnaught. The Blockade Runner certainly couldn't out run a Star Destroyer.


I'd say the big flaw here is not whether a Resistance ship 'could' outrun the Dreadnaught, but that the scenes are just boring. They kept cutting back to the chase, while nothing had changed in the story, while also switching to a completely pointless sequence of scenes at a Casino planet. The movie was just spinning its wheels here... and you're complaining about who can outrun who?

jlw515 wrote:In addition, we weren't really introduced to any new characters that really moved the story along or will continue to move the story along in Ep. 9. So, to me, TLJ is almost like TFA part 2 and not really enough to considered Episode 8 OR we change Ep. 8 to Ep. 9 seeing as how the ending of TLJ would be more fitting for the ending of the entire ST.


The highlighted part is really the big problem. The movie didn't know where to go. Disney had clearly not planned out the story for the trilogy in advance. God knows why. But this movie was constantly spinning its wheels, wasting time, and not resolving or following up on plot hooks left by TFA. There was so much here to make a movie out of, and they did nothing with it. That was TLJ's biggest problem. No satisfying conclusions to the existing narrative, no pay off, and no coherent structure. It also felt like TLJ was constantly subverting the expectations of the audience, but not in service to the story, but just for the sake of subvertion. Having plot twists can be really good in a story, but they have to make sense. A show like Game of Thrones is full of twists, but all of them are narratively set up first. TLJ was just dropping nonsensical twists left and right, with no set up or explanation what so ever.

So, it was a bit of a mess, but with a few fun scenes.
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