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ATOC left alot of questions.

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zedhatch
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ATOC left alot of questions.

Postby zedhatch » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:26 am

I know I mentioned this on Rebelscum a few years ago, but I never realy gained alot from that thead so hear goes:

Last night I was going through my annual ritual of SW (ep1-6) and got to ATOC, which is the movie that complicated alot but left some unanswered questons in my mind:

First and foremost, Saphodious (SP?), Was it he who truely ordered the Clone Army? Was it Dooku who pretended to be him? This part always confused me as its never really explained anywhere.

Second, the Jedi Archives being altered. Again there is never a clear line drawn here. My assumption is Dooku did this whle still a Jedi, but again is there any confirmation on this (and where).

Lastly, it occured to me before but I thought I would point it out here, it seems odd even in light of the droid war going on that the Jedi took to the Clone army so easy. They were schetchy on the origin (knowing that something was odd with them and what they were being told). yet kept useing them even with that suspiction. I have a bit of a problem with such a large government NOT having a standing army anyway (I mean what was to prevent the Hutts from invading?). Still I will suspend that for a second to ask, after useing the clones for the one battle on Geonosis why is it no one tried to oganize a full honest to goodness army from the Republic? It makes absolutly no sence whatsoever to me that no one wanted a full fledged standing army (even considering Palps powers of manipulation, it just doesn't fit).
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Re: ATOC left alot of questions.

Postby Darth Kikinou » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:22 pm

zedhatch wrote:First and foremost, Saphodious (SP?), Was it he who truely ordered the Clone Army? Was it Dooku who pretended to be him? This part always confused me as its never really explained anywhere.


Look for an answer to this question in a future chapter of my photonovel series ;-) hah! That's right, and it's canon too har har har ;-)

I have a bit of a problem with such a large government NOT having a standing army anyway (I mean what was to prevent the Hutts from invading?). Still I will suspend that for a second to ask, after useing the clones for the one battle on Geonosis why is it no one tried to oganize a full honest to goodness army from the Republic? It makes absolutly no sence whatsoever to me that no one wanted a full fledged standing army (even considering Palps powers of manipulation, it just doesn't fit).


Think of "The Republic" as being something akin to the United Nations, and the Jedi are like the multi-national peacekeeping forces the U.N. deploys to God forsaken countries to halt genocides n the like. The systems that are in the Republic-- including Coruscant-- are sovereign systems and are thus free to have their own armies, which they do. Look at Naboo, they do have a rudimentary army with an air force and the like. None of the systems have a substantial enough army to compete against an army as huge as the separatist alliance but they could take on an attack by the Hutt and if they lose then the Jedi would get involved. Remember in episode i that the Jedi are escorted to Naboo by a navy, presumably from Coruscant.

So, think of the senators in the galactic senate as being like ambassadors to the U.N. The queen of Naboo showing up to address the senate and take on the senator from the Trade Federation was like how President Bush went to the U.N. to appeal for cooperation. I believe that that scene though was inspired by what we saw in "13 Days" (which is historically accurate too), where the ambassador from the United States presented evidence that the Soviet Union had missiles in Cuba.

Pardon my rambling on, but lastly, a declaration of war from the separatist alliance is akin to what it would be like if some far off star system were to declare war against earth. All the nations would unite their armies to take them on. Or I guess you can think of WWII, where you had the Axis and the Allies. fun!
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Re: ATOC left alot of questions.

Postby zedhatch » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:34 pm

Think of "The Republic" as being something akin to the United Nations, and the Jedi are like the multi-national peacekeeping forces the U.N. deploys to God forsaken countries to halt genocides n the like. The systems that are in the Republic-- including Coruscant-- are sovereign systems and are thus free to have their own armies, which they do. Look at Naboo, they do have a rudimentary army with an air force and the like. None of the systems have a substantial enough army to compete against an army as huge as the separatist alliance but they could take on an attack by the Hutt and if they lose then the Jedi would get involved. Remember in episode i that the Jedi are escorted to Naboo by a navy, presumably from Coruscant.


MMMMM a few problems with this, First the UN's primary function is to bridge cultural differences and to have an even forum for all nations (in order to avoid conflict). They are not in any way shape or form a governing body. They cannot pass laws that all its members must follow (they have rules of course for membership, but that is not the same thing).

Padme (pointing out too that she is herself a ruling person) says "The Republic's anti slavery laws..." when talking to Shimi in Episode 1. In other words the Republic has passed laws that all the systems must follow.

Also this gets into why the heck the seperatists were rebelling in the first place, "Republic Rule." Sure politicians use the term "UN rule" but it is a misnomer.

The Republic falls and Padme says "So this is how democracy ends." Even Obi Wan goes off about democracy, the UN has appointed bodies, not democratic, it does not fit. We do not elect teh representitives to the UN.

The name "Republic" is also a specific form of government (yes this is space but it was written on earth, specificly in the United States). Dispite my disagreements with Lucas, he has said repeatedly that the Republic is based off the old Roman Republic and Plapatine's rise to power is reflective of Julius Ceaser. Again pointing at a governing body.

So, think of the senators in the galactic senate as being like ambassadors to the U.N. The queen of Naboo showing up to address the senate and take on the senator from the Trade Federation was like how President Bush went to the U.N. to appeal for cooperation. I believe that that scene though was inspired by what we saw in "13 Days" (which is historically accurate too), where the ambassador from the United States presented evidence that the Soviet Union had missiles in Cuba.


However the appeal wasn't for action in the case of Cuba but to show Cuba as a threat, not the same thing that was going on in Ep 1 where Naboo had already been attacked. Mostly the UN can only incure trade sanctions (which is what the trade federation was doing, with force of arms) to cripple a nation's economy. The UN forces are only called upon in the utmost extreame cases.

Pardon my rambling on, but lastly, a declaration of war from the separatist alliance is akin to what it would be like if some far off star system were to declare war against earth. All the nations would unite their armies to take them on. Or I guess you can think of WWII, where you had the Axis and the Allies. fun!


OK that is what my question was, I understand useing the clones for the Genosis assault as there was no time for a proper mobilisation of the forces. So after that why is there no huge rally of the allies (the republic star systems) agaisnt this threat.
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Re: ATOC left alot of questions.

Postby Darth Kikinou » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:16 pm

Well, you're right, it's a very imperfect analogy, but even though the Republic is a lot more politically powerful than the U.N. is, it's still the same kind of body. Or maybe think of the guys in Montana living in compounds full of guns who wish for the federal govt to be disbanded. If that happened I guess all there would be left is a rudimentary senate but no real executive at the helm, nor would it have an army. Each state would have their own. So if such a "republic" were formed, you'd need a leader for this senate, even one with little to no power to just shepherd it. But, in a time of emergency such as say, China declaring war and threatening to invade, all the states could suddenly want to pool all their resources and let this figurehead, the only "neutral and state-less" figure to run the show and be the commander of the newly formed army. Remember Valorum was completely powerless and so was Palps at first, I reckon. It took an emergency to make him an executive at all, before that he was nothing but a figurehead leader for keeping procedure in line.

That is very imperfect too, does it work you think?
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Re: ATOC left alot of questions.

Postby JediJman » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:03 pm

I would love to get more clarification on who ordered the army and altered the databanks. I'm not sure if any of the EU novels have covered this yet, but if they can write a book about the building of the death star, someone ought to cover this eventually.

As for the set up of the republic and lack of army, that makes sense to me. There is no true governing body in the republic outside of the supreme chancellor and the senators. You can get lost in the symantics of the name, but I think the "laws" were created through democratic vote by the senate. The Supreme Chancellor is an elected leader of sorts (by the senators), but can't really override the senate. He might have tie-breaking powers and the like, but laws in the republic are determined by majority vote of the senators prior to palpatine taking over. The UN model isn't perfect, but similar to that I suppose.

Now I think the opposition to even having an army was that it would give the republic too much agressive power (hence Bail and Padme's opposition to forming an army). As it stood pre-army, individual systems had their own fleets and as members of a larger body, those fleets could be used for any battles the republic needed. If the Hutts attack someone, the Republic can send in fleets from the Correlians, Mon Cal, Bothans, etc. to fight then they return to their individual systems for defense. In return, those systems all get various benefits - maybe less tax on import/exports, a voice in the ruling body of the senate, and obviously use of defensive forces from their allies when needed. That's actually a big part of the storyline in more recent novels where some systems no longer want to lend their forces to the alliance.

In AOTC, the issue is that several systems have banded together with massive droid armies, far surpassing any forces the Republic has had to deal with in the past. The "reserves" aren't going to be enough to fight them all off, especially with numerous planets taking this opportunity of distraction to ignite more localized feuds (like on Jabim). Then the clone army appears and suddently the Republic has just enough troops and munitions to fight back. This is all carefully orchastrated by Palpatine, so that neither side really tips the scales until he wants them to. There is no need to recruit for this army during the clone wars because Kamino continues to churn out all the forces the Republic needs. Besides, would you want to implement recruiting and training centers when you could more easily just grow clones of a bounty hunter? It was obviously also necessary to limit the army to just clones in order to implement order #66.
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Re: ATOC left alot of questions.

Postby YAK_Jayson » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:42 pm

I think is was confirmed in the Labyrinth of Evil novel that Master Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones and and Dooku altered the databanks and killed him as a test of allegiance to Darth Sidious.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas
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Re: ATOC left alot of questions.

Postby Darth Kikinou » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:47 pm

YAK_Jayson wrote:I think is was confirmed in the Labyrinth of Evil novel that Master Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones and and Dooku altered the databanks and killed him as a test of allegiance to Darth Sidious.


No no no!! heh. Well, maybe. But _MY_ pn will be the definitive canon source for these events ;-) har har har
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